Hi all,

I’m starting med school next year and while I am not starting med school saying I’m 100% going to be a neurosurgeon, neurosurgery is definitely where my interest currently is.

My question is this, I was fortunate enough to have received acceptances at UCSF, Columbia, and Unversity of Chicago, Pritzker School of Medicine. Pritzker is being very persuasive by giving me a full ride + 30K in spending money. My one hesitancy in going with Pritzker is that I know their Neurosurg dept is in flux with their accreditation, recent attendings leaving, etc., and being that UCSF and Columbia have more “prestige” with their neurosurg programs than UChicago.

So how much should that weigh in on my decision of where to attend? Am I over thinking this and it really doesn’t matter? Sorry if these questions are annoying! At this point I don’t really know much about the match process and some insight would be much appreciated. Thanks much!

I think this will make a huge difference.  Letters, publications, research opportunities, and your ability to network with people in your department will all be important in matching somewhere. 

That said, you could could also go to a great medical school and be such an asshole that you’d blow it anywhere. 

I think most of it is up to you, but going somewhere great is better than not.

Hmm, so you’re saying that UCSF and Columbia look great compared to UChicago? I’ve been emailing current students at Pritzker and they have said that their match list is amazing (which it is) and that residencies in general (not necessarily neurosurg) hold Pritzker in high regard. But then again, with neurosurg being so small, it matter a lot more?? Can anyone comment on Pritzker’s reputation in the neurosurgery world?

Sorry ... I just am having such a tough decision because Pritzker is making it financially sooo enticing, but I know that I shouldn’t make money the final decision maker (I liked Pritzker too ... so it’s just not the money).

You got your answer and you still have asinine questions.  I don’t see a debate here. 

Listen, who cares how great the Chicago match list is...I am sure they had many great internal medicine matches and probably quite a few derm matches.  Doesn’t matter.  The only lists you should be looking at are the neurosurgery match lists found on this website.  Compare the number of matches from Chicago to UCSF and Columbia—not even in the same ballpark.  And those programs put you at an advantage into matching into a great residency for the reasons stated above by GoodToHook.  I urge you to pay particular attention to his middle line of advice.

I don’t think there will be any disagreement about UCSF and Columbia being better med schools to go to if you are interested in NS…
...but just to play devil’s advocate… You said that you are most interested in neurosurgery, but not 100% sure.  I’m willing to bet that there are many more pre-meds and first and second year medical students (myself included) who plan on going into neurosurgery than actually do.  Its not like UChicago is podunkU, if you do well there I have to imagine you’d be able to match and it is a whole F%!@ load of money.  Also, like you said, they match people well in many specialties so if you don’t do NS…

All that said...if it were me, I would go to UCSF, top NS department, excellent place across the board, in San Francisco and if you’ve got money on your mind its still cheaper than Columbia.

My two cents:

You’re overthinking it.

As far as neurosurgery training programs go UCSF>>Columbia and Chicago, but you are going to medical school, not residency.  You can get an excellent medical education and match well coming from any of those three schools.

Go where you will be happiest and most productive and let the rest of it sort itself out over the next four years.  A personable, bright, hardworking student from the University of Chicago with good scores, good grades and a little research would have an excellent chance of matching well.

Congratulations on getting into some great medical schools and best of luck to you in your future endeavors.

A LOT can change in 4 years.  By then U of C might have a much better neurosurg residency program, or you might decide you want to do something else.  Within Chicago it is easy for you rotate at other great neurosurgery programs.  I would strongly consider the financial incentive associated with a scholarship.  Especially if it means the difference between graduating in debt versus without debt.  Who knows what a neurosurgeon will even make in 11 years (when you would be done)?

no name please - 05 April 2010 02:18 PM

A LOT can change in 4 years.  By then U of C might have a much better neurosurg residency program, or you might decide you want to do something else.  Within Chicago it is easy for you rotate at other great neurosurgery programs.  I would strongly consider the financial incentive associated with a scholarship.  Especially if it means the difference between graduating in debt versus without debt.  Who knows what a neurosurgeon will even make in 11 years (when you would be done)?

Agreed. It is not clear cut, but I would take the scholarship.  You are obviously a good student, so keep it up and you will match. It will be more difficult to get into the inbred programs (Columbia, Hopkins, etc) but I would much rather take the scholarship. And I’m a former Columbia student, if that makes any difference.

Take a look at the neurosurgery match list from the last few years, and you’ll see medical schools with stronger neurosurgery programs are definitely more highly represented. In my opinion, I’d go to SF > Columbia > Chicago if I thought there was a high likelihood of pursuing neurosurgery afterwards, but I might consider the scholarship if I wasn’t too picky about a speciality just yet. Also, consider letting SF and Columbia know about your scholarship offer, and they might consider having the financial aid office work with you to get you a better financial package.

Thanks everyone for taking time to reply - really appreciate it!

In terms of how serious I am about going into neurosurgery, I’m pretty set on it. I just don’t want to go into med school with a gunner attitude saying it’s neurosurg or nothing - the people I’ve met like that (ortho, neursurg, etc.) have rubbed me the wrong way.

I did talk to both UCSF and Columbia about the fin aid. At first I don’t think they believed me when I said that Pritzker was offering 30K above and beyond tuition - they said no school offers so much. When I emailed them a copy of my fin aid offer, the response I got back from UCSF was that there was no way they could come close to matching the scholarship. Columbia simply responded that they don’t typically give scholarships.

If I could ask one more question. I know that most on here are saying in terms of reputation it’d go UCSF and Columbia way before UChicago ... but UChicago by itself - what is it’s reputation neurosurg programs when they see an applicant from UChicago? Do they still hold the med school in high regard? Everyone I’ve been talking to has been saying that Pritzker is well regarded in the medical community and while it isn’t Columbia/UCSF neurosurgery, I would be going to Pritzker for med school and not neurosurgery and that the med school is top notch.

Sorry to drag this out. I’m just really torn between having ZERO debt as opposed to having possibly 250K in debt.

If you definitely know that you will achieve your goal of neurosurgery against all odds no matter what, then go where you’ll have the best chance of matching into neurosurgery: Columbia.  If you’re a neurosurgeon, 250K in debt will be paid off in a year or two.

At the end of the day, you’re choosing between a couple of great options.  You really can’t go wrong at any of these places though I bet you’d have an easier time getting an NS spot at SF or columbia.  To narrow between those two, I think it would really depend on your personality...med school at columbia would be a different experience than SF (but both would be great preparation).  I would go wherever I had a better feel.

rav1717 - 05 April 2010 08:44 PM

UChicago by itself - what is it’s reputation neurosurg programs when they see an applicant from UChicago? Do they still hold the med school in high regard? Everyone I’ve been talking to has been saying that Pritzker is well regarded in the medical community and while it isn’t Columbia/UCSF neurosurgery.

The last two years, Pritzker students matched at Indiana and Rush, while UCSF matched at UCSF, Barrow, and Vandy, and Columbia students match to a variety of programs. So yes, whether or not it is “right,” students from programs with more famous neurosurgery programs like SF and Columbia do often land more competitive matches.

I think it’s interesting it’s assumed that Columbia and UCSF medical students match well because they have strong neurosurgery residency programs.

To the original poster, some things to consider:

- Does the medical school allow for time off for research purposes?  I mention this because medical students at UCSF and Columbia are encouraged to partake in the environment of basic science research.  Sometimes this is in the form of a 1-year NIH sponsored fellowship (Doris Duke or Howard Hughes are some of the common ones).  Medical students from Columbia and UCSF are competitive for these prestigious fellowships because their respective medical campuses already receive a high volume of NIH dollars.  These types of research opportunities are important in neurosurgery, especially to those hoping to match at what are traditionally considered top programs, because they show a strong commitment to academic neurosurgery.  I would be willing to bet that students from UCSF and Columbia matching at top programs have had this on their resume.  Other important parts of the application have discussed ad nauseum, so I won’t belabor Step 1s, grades, etc.

- What, when and how are the medical students exposed to neurosurgery?  I know at Columbia, it is a required 2-week rotation during their 3rd year.  Not all medical schools across the country do something like this.  This has sometimes been referred to why Columbia typically has always had strong representation in the match - good early exposure.  I’m not aware of UCSFs curriculum, but I do know that they have NOT always had very high numbers applying in neurosurgery year-in and year-out.  That being said, those who do apply from UCSF tend to match very well.

- Medical school is expensive and it’s a long-term investment; you want to go somewhere that equally invests in you.  While having a scholarship is always an added bonus, not to mention a sign that the medical is highly interested in seeing you matriculate, it’s not really about that.  What I mean by the statement is a medical school that is particularly supportive of developing your career goals.  UCSF and Columbia are comparatively large schools and UChicago is slightly smaller.  There is also a public vs. private distinction to consider.  These are important issues to think about when it comes time to pick a specialty. 

Public schools will commonly display a commitment to cultivating good exposure in the primary care fields because those meet the most pressing needs of the state.  Said another way, if Columbia has 8 people applying in neurosurgery, their department will generally support ALL 8 of their applications into field with strong LORs (provided applicant(s) aren’t completely worthless).  Harvard supports 18 people applying into dermatology and I don’t think MA is a state with rampant skin issues (can check on this, but I believe that is how many they matched into Derm last year).  I’m sure UChicago’s strong match list is reflective of the fact that it is a small, private elite medical school with excellent support from all their departments (including neurosurgery).  I would argue that this is a great equalizer considering that UChicago’s neurosurgery department has undergone some changes recently.  You could always do away rotations at UCSF and Columbia, perform well and secure strong LORs from the same important names that would be writing for you had you attended their respective medical schools. 

Oh, and if you completely suck, it sinks your entire application regardless of how great the medical school/neurosurgery department is.

Some food for thought . . . and good luck.

FWIW since 2000, Pritzker matched in NS at:

UofC(2), UPMC, Vanderbilt, BWH, UWash (2), WashUStl, Northwestern, Rush (2), Barrow, and Indiana.

Systema Encéphale - 08 April 2010 10:33 PM

FWIW since 2000, Pritzker matched in NS at:

UofC(2), UPMC, Vanderbilt, BWH, UWash (2), WashUStl, Northwestern, Rush (2), Barrow, and Indiana.

Oh snap!  What were we talking about again . . .