Which programs are the most time consuming in terms of demanding off work time, or least vacation time?  Sure everyone is “80” or “88” hours, but are there programs that don’t give vacation time?

You’re asking the wrong questions.  If these are your concerns you’ll be better off in a different speciality.

Guest - 08 July 2007 06:13 PM

You’re asking the wrong questions.  If these are your concerns you’ll be better off in a different speciality.

That is awfully self-righteous of you.  Once you get further along in your life and have a wife,children, and even aging parents to worry about, you will realize that there are other factors that go into making a decision of where to train let alone how you run your practice.  Any person knows the hours for nsg are long and I am sure the OP was well aware of that fact.  But the difference between a program that is known for working you 90 hours versus 100 hours means 10 more hours at home to be with your baby daughter.  Dont be so quick to judge and you may avoid making yourself seem foolish.

I am married and I have kids.  I’m lucky have a good family life and a wife that makes things work, but no matter where you go your going to work 80 hours a week (the 88 hour exceptions are going bye-bye) and everyone gets vacation time.  If you go in asking about your vacation and hours I just think you’ll be happier somewhere else.

I think the OP has a valid point.  All things equal with hours and such, there is a difference between a program that gives 3 weeks of vacation a year vs 5 days a year, summed over 7 years.  Maybe this is the OPs point…

I’d be curious to know this info.

The people now choosing Neurosurgery because they know they won’t have to bust their a$$ like the old days are ruining both residency programs and the specialty.

We used to scare pu$$ies like you away.

Guest - 09 July 2007 04:53 PM

The people now choosing Neurosurgery because they know they won’t have to bust their a$$ like the old days are ruining both residency programs and the specialty.

We used to scare pu$$ies like you away.

you say we as if you are somebody who matters.  i can assure you that you are not

Guest - 09 July 2007 04:53 PM

The people now choosing Neurosurgery because they know they won’t have to bust their a$$ like the old days are ruining both residency programs and the specialty.

We used to scare pu$$ies like you away.

Let’s get back to the old days when neurosurgeons knew their shit and rocked medicine hard.

Guest - 09 July 2007 05:34 PM

Guest - 09 July 2007 04:53 PM

The people now choosing Neurosurgery because they know they won’t have to bust their a$$ like the old days are ruining both residency programs and the specialty.

We used to scare pu$$ies like you away.

Let’s get back to the old days when neurosurgeons knew their shit and rocked medicine hard.

alrite gnarly man rock on 1080 tailspin ollie.  bonehead.  I can assure you neurosurgeons are still quite adept and for you to imply otherwise shows ignorance and is insulting.

Guest - 09 July 2007 06:50 PM

Guest - 09 July 2007 05:34 PM

Guest - 09 July 2007 04:53 PM

The people now choosing Neurosurgery because they know they won’t have to bust their a$$ like the old days are ruining both residency programs and the specialty.

We used to scare pu$$ies like you away.

Let’s get back to the old days when neurosurgeons knew their shit and rocked medicine hard.

alrite gnarly man rock on 1080 tailspin ollie. 

Someone played too much Tony Hawk, haha.

I wish we could still delete posts, because this is turning out to be the worst thread ever.  Show yourselves, name and program, name and program, name and program.

To the original poster: I don’t want to resort to crude language since I don’t think it will help you understand why your post offends people in neurosurgery.  I trained pre-80 hours a week, and like many other people on this board, prided myself and our service on its ability to handle things.  I remember starting mid-June and getting my first “day off” (it was a Sunday) in November.  We worked 120 to 140 hours a week in my intern and PGY-2 years, and we learned so much that it was staggering.  By the end of my PGY-2 year, I could admit a sub-arachnoid hemorrhage (write an H&P, orders, place a subclavian line, ventriculostomy and a-line) all in less than 30 minutes.  I could take out a subdural (skin to skin) in under an hour, with the chief resident only scrubbing in for due diligence.  I have seen what the 80 hour work week has done to training, and I know that it is not good.  The 80-hour residents can not do basic things fast (a-lines, central lines, ventrics); they don’t get as much “alone exposure” to ICU problems since there is now more staff around to take care of these things for them; they don’t get the operative experience; and most important of all (which is why your post hits such a nerve with us) is that they don’t seem to understand that neurosurgery is not a “shift” job where you count your hours and vacation days - it is a philosophy that you will do everything within your power for the good of the patient.

When the 80 hour workweek first got started, I thought it was a reasonable idea.  Just because I had been tortured, did not mean that it was the only way to teach residents.  Unfortunately I have been very sorely disappointed with the outcome.  I genuinely feel that people who are concerned about social life issues before they even start should not do neurosurgery.  Don’t take it personally, but I really think you should seriously consider other fields where life style is not an issue (radiology, ophtho, anesthesia, derm...).

Amen to that. I agree. A
Z

Guest - 10 July 2007 02:42 AM

To the original poster: I don’t want to resort to crude language since I don’t think it will help you understand why your post offends people in neurosurgery.  I trained pre-80 hours a week, and like many other people on this board, prided myself and our service on its ability to handle things.  I remember starting mid-June and getting my first “day off” (it was a Sunday) in November.  We worked 120 to 140 hours a week in my intern and PGY-2 years, and we learned so much that it was staggering.  By the end of my PGY-2 year, I could admit a sub-arachnoid hemorrhage (write an H&P, orders, place a subclavian line, ventriculostomy and a-line) all in less than 30 minutes.  I could take out a subdural (skin to skin) in under an hour, with the chief resident only scrubbing in for due diligence.  I have seen what the 80 hour work week has done to training, and I know that it is not good.  The 80-hour residents can not do basic things fast (a-lines, central lines, ventrics); they don’t get as much “alone exposure” to ICU problems since there is now more staff around to take care of these things for them; they don’t get the operative experience; and most important of all (which is why your post hits such a nerve with us) is that they don’t seem to understand that neurosurgery is not a “shift” job where you count your hours and vacation days - it is a philosophy that you will do everything within your power for the good of the patient.

When the 80 hour workweek first got started, I thought it was a reasonable idea.  Just because I had been tortured, did not mean that it was the only way to teach residents.  Unfortunately I have been very sorely disappointed with the outcome.  I genuinely feel that people who are concerned about social life issues before they even start should not do neurosurgery.  Don’t take it personally, but I really think you should seriously consider other fields where life style is not an issue (radiology, ophtho, anesthesia, derm...).

I hate to admit it, but I agree with this. Well spoken, too. I’m finishing in a year, and my training has spanned the transition from the old days to the new rules. These new rules have really opened the door to people who are smart and scared of working long hours, figuring that NS won’t be much different from FP. Sadly that’s not the case.

That said, the rules are here, and they’re not going to change, so it’s up to all of us to look for the red flags of the new-order applicants. Personally I find it concerning when candidates show any worry at all about the hours we work, when we arrive and when we go home. We’re following the 88-hour rules, and that should really be enough for anyone applying. Vacation time is a fair question, IMHO, because I believe in the “work hard play hard” school of thought. I’d rather work over my hours and lie about it, then have a few days to rest and go someplace.

Another problem that nobody has mentioned is that our interns are being socialized by general surgery, and they’re second only to anesthesia in carrying a shiftwork mentality these days. I’m finding myself working hard to get my PGY-2’s to finish their work and not sign out a bunch of errands to the nightsweeper.

Anyway, if the guarantee of <80 hours a week and one day off per week isn’t enough on its own, you won’t be happy here. If you’re already married with kids, forget about us, you owe your kids and wife better than taking a job like this.

So...are you saying that those with a wife and kids need not apply...period?

Is it unquestionably impossible to complete NS training and still be a good parent and spouse?

Guest - 13 July 2007 09:49 AM

So...are you saying that those with a wife and kids need not apply...period?

Is it unquestionably impossible to complete NS training and still be a good parent and spouse?

It’s tough to be a good parent and spouse when you’re not there. Junior residency is nothing but hard work. It doesn’t matter about the 80-hour rule or where you do your residency, it’s just really hard. Spending a few hours of ‘quality time’ on the weekends doesn’t compare to spending evenings in the backyard tossing a baseball after work. Residency is taxing even on a healthy marriage because of the time demands, and also because it’s such a drastic change from medical school. A lot of residents wind up getting divorced because of this. That’s not only a catastrophe for the kids, but you might as well have gone into FP for all the money you’ll have left after child support and alimony. I’ve watched this happen to friends, and it’s ugly.

It’s a free country, so anyone can apply and match. But I think NS residency is a lot like the life of naval aviators: it’s a great job for young guys without kids.