Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 01:30 PM

Undergraduate: Harvard
Step I: 247/99
Step II CK: 250/99
Preclinical : few honors
Third-year Clinical : few honors
Fourth-year Clinical : all electives honors. Nsg sub I honors. did not do an away nsg subI
Alpha Omega Alpha:  no
Research:  extensive with multiple publications
Programs applied to: 40 programs
Interviews Offered: 29
Accepted interviews: 9
Ranked programs:  9
Match: No matched

General Comments : only God knows why....

For all the reasons discussed above, I think that more than God knows.....
Obviously on paper, you are an above average candidate.  AOA would have put you over the top, and I suppose the fact that you had only a few honors in your first 2 years, and first clinical year, could have hurt you.
But....to get 29/40 interviews and only go to 9....????  I would have been on the phone with the dean of my medical school explaining the situation and by hell or high water would have interviewed at at least 15 places, if not more. 
As mentioned above as well, an away sub-I would have done wonders.  I did a sub-I at a ‘less prestigious’ program than where I was going to medical school solely because it offered something a little different than my home program.  The chairman was also well known, which helped when he wrote me a letter.

My final comment is that this can come down to a numbers game.  You could be the best candidate for almost every program in the country....but if you happen to be ranked number 2, 3, or 4 at the 9 programs you ranked....you are SOL.  It has been discussed on this site that 10 programs is the ‘magic number’ to interview at....but I thiink that is also dependent on the types of programs you choose, and also some factors beyond your control, such as whether a few of the programs already have a very good candidate they know from a sub-I , etc.....

Anyway, don’t give it up yet...with your numbers you should be able to try again, or find an open spot.  Good luck.

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 02:16 PM

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 02:10 PM

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 01:30 PM

Undergraduate: Harvard
Step I: 247/99
Step II CK: 250/99
Preclinical : few honors
Third-year Clinical : few honors
Fourth-year Clinical : all electives honors. Nsg sub I honors. did not do an away nsg subI
Alpha Omega Alpha:  no
Research:  extensive with multiple publications
Programs applied to: 40 programs
Interviews Offered: 29
Accepted interviews: 9
Ranked programs:  9
Match: No matched

General Comments : only God knows why....

Can’t get away with no away rotations - places like to match the people that they rank highly and if you don’t do any away’s, they think you just want to stay home.  9 interviews is too light, especially if they’re all strong programs.

They were not all strong program, they were spread from Mayo to Peoria. I only did 2 highly regarded places. I only did 9 interviews because my med school did not allow me time off to go to any more interviews, and did not do an away because I have decided late. Since I do not have a personality disorder I am thinking 2 things, maybe it was not my time to match right now, or 2: SF match screwed up the match (which is possible since there is no one out there to check and see what the hell they do). So yeah, I guess the only one who really knows what happened is God. What can I do? Absolutely nothing.

What do you mean “absolutely nothing”?? You’re pissing me off with your attitude. Don’t be so complacent. You can do a lot next time to match. First you can go to many more interviews. You can also do 2-3 away rotations and do well on them. You can get good letters of rec from chairmen at those away rotations. You can do more research and some more publications. You can talk to your chairman (if you have one) and ask him/her for more strategies. If you just sit there waiting for people to come beg you to come to their school it’s not going to happen no matter how good you are unless you double your efforts!

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 01:30 PM

Undergraduate: Harvard
Step I: 247/99
Step II CK: 250/99

General Comments : only God knows why....

Hey there, I’m so sorry that you didn’t match.  Good for you having the guts to put yourself out here.  Next year’s class can benefit a lot from your bravery.  If you feel the least bit demoralized or frustrated with things right now, hopefully people will keep in mind what you’re going through and be gentle.  It’s hard to imagine a bigger kick in the belly than we both got on Thursday, no matter the reason why it happened.

I hope you won’t mind if I toss in my 2 cents?  Of course there might have been nothing but bad luck against you.  Nobody will ever know if you were ranked #2 at nine places that all had one spot, and it could technically have happened.  But I also see some potential mistakes that both you AND I could have made and next year’s folks could avoid.

I was advised to do only one away rotation in addition to my home one.  I chose a tough program and got Honors there, but by the time I left, I knew it wasn’t a program where I would be happy for 7 years...so it didn’t end up giving me an “inside track” I could use.  My school also doesn’t begin fourth year until August, so my home rotation was that month and the away was all of September.  I thought it was way late at that point to get a letter (heck, my first 2 interview invites had already arrived by then), so I didn’t bother.  Bad move?  Oh yeah, I bet.

Later, I was asked several times on the interview trail why I had only done one away rotation.  That’s when I realized that doing just one away rotation was not that normal and probably raising red flags at least in some places.  If doing only one raised flags, doing none almost surely did.  So based on my experience and possibly yours, perhaps future folks could aim for at least 2?  (To be complete, however, I do know someone who did zero aways and did match...there are no hard and fast rules.)

On the number of interviews to do, both of us declined 20 invites.  I did 13, you did 9.  They say that statistically 10 is “enough,” but you know, maybe this year it really wasn’t.  Both of us chose a mix of top and lower tier schools.  Possibly you got feedback that you thought was encouraging and felt you’d done enough.  Would you do more if you could go back?

Plus as I mentioned before, I think I goofed by not telling my #2 and #3 programs how highly I was ranking them.  Did you make sure your top few knew?  Something I didn’t realize before interviews, but which became evident during, was how much chairmen care about getting one of their top few picks.  I was told that having to go to their 10th or 11th choice applicant actually has some effect on their program’s reputation or some kind of ranking.  (Would be interested to know if this is legit, but you can’t really get a better source than a chairman himself, so I believed it.) Therefore they try to rank people highly who they really think they’re going to get.  Being dishonest and telling everyone you’ll rank them #1 is a bad idea - seriously, this gets caught, chairmen talk to each other - but maybe you *really* do have to let a program know you want them in order to be ranked high enough.

All just thoughts and speculation for the benefit of next year, none aimed at you in anything remotely like criticism.  I am sure you did your best (would anyone put themselves through this without doing their best?) and I’m so sorry you didn’t match.  Here’s to keeping your chin up and let’s hope both of us find something wonderful for next year!

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 02:16 PM

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 02:10 PM

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 01:30 PM

Undergraduate: Harvard
Step I: 247/99
Step II CK: 250/99
Preclinical : few honors
Third-year Clinical : few honors
Fourth-year Clinical : all electives honors. Nsg sub I honors. did not do an away nsg subI
Alpha Omega Alpha:  no
Research:  extensive with multiple publications
Programs applied to: 40 programs
Interviews Offered: 29
Accepted interviews: 9
Ranked programs:  9
Match: No matched

General Comments : only God knows why....

Can’t get away with no away rotations - places like to match the people that they rank highly and if you don’t do any away’s, they think you just want to stay home.  9 interviews is too light, especially if they’re all strong programs.

They were not all strong program, they were spread from Mayo to Peoria. I only did 2 highly regarded places. I only did 9 interviews because my med school did not allow me time off to go to any more interviews, and did not do an away because I have decided late. Since I do not have a personality disorder I am thinking 2 things, maybe it was not my time to match right now, or 2: SF match screwed up the match (which is possible since there is no one out there to check and see what the hell they do). So yeah, I guess the only one who really knows what happened is God. What can I do? Absolutely nothing.

I agree about the ‘attitude’...I understand the disappointment...but, I wonder exactly how much a little complacency and feeling of superiority came across during the interviews.  To suggest that this somehow was ‘screwed up’ by the match may also point to some personality problems.  Just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you........

surgigal - 27 January 2008 03:42 PM

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 01:30 PM

Undergraduate: Harvard
Step I: 247/99
Step II CK: 250/99

General Comments : only God knows why....

Hey there, I’m so sorry that you didn’t match.  Good for you having the guts to put yourself out here.  Next year’s class can benefit a lot from your bravery.  If you feel the least bit demoralized or frustrated with things right now, hopefully people will keep in mind what you’re going through and be gentle.  It’s hard to imagine a bigger kick in the belly than we both got on Thursday, no matter the reason why it happened.

I hope you won’t mind if I toss in my 2 cents?  Of course there might have been nothing but bad luck against you.  Nobody will ever know if you were ranked #2 at nine places that all had one spot, and it could technically have happened.  But I also see some potential mistakes that both you AND I could have made and next year’s folks could avoid.

I was advised to do only one away rotation in addition to my home one.  I chose a tough program and got Honors there, but by the time I left, I knew it wasn’t a program where I would be happy for 7 years...so it didn’t end up giving me an “inside track” I could use.  My school also doesn’t begin fourth year until August, so my home rotation was that month and the away was all of September.  I thought it was way late at that point to get a letter (heck, my first 2 interview invites had already arrived by then), so I didn’t bother.  Bad move?  Oh yeah, I bet.

Later, I was asked several times on the interview trail why I had only done one away rotation.  That’s when I realized that doing just one away rotation was not that normal and probably raising red flags at least in some places.  If doing only one raised flags, doing none almost surely did.  So based on my experience and possibly yours, perhaps future folks could aim for at least 2?  (To be complete, however, I do know someone who did zero aways and did match...there are no hard and fast rules.)

On the number of interviews to do, both of us declined 20 invites.  I did 13, you did 9.  They say that statistically 10 is “enough,” but you know, maybe this year it really wasn’t.  Both of us chose a mix of top and lower tier schools.  Possibly you got feedback that you thought was encouraging and felt you’d done enough.  Would you do more if you could go back?

Plus as I mentioned before, I think I goofed by not telling my #2 and #3 programs how highly I was ranking them.  Did you make sure your top few knew?  Something I didn’t realize before interviews, but which became evident during, was how much chairmen care about getting one of their top few picks.  I was told that having to go to their 10th or 11th choice applicant actually has some effect on their program’s reputation or some kind of ranking.  (Would be interested to know if this is legit, but you can’t really get a better source than a chairman himself, so I believed it.) Therefore they try to rank people highly who they really think they’re going to get.  Being dishonest and telling everyone you’ll rank them #1 is a bad idea - seriously, this gets caught, chairmen talk to each other - but maybe you *really* do have to let a program know you want them in order to be ranked high enough.

All just thoughts and speculation for the benefit of next year, none aimed at you in anything remotely like criticism.  I am sure you did your best (would anyone put themselves through this without doing their best?) and I’m so sorry you didn’t match.  Here’s to keeping your chin up and let’s hope both of us find something wonderful for next year!

OK...there is a distinct difference in how the two of you are analyzing this.  Surgigal, not even knowing you, I get the idea that you would never say “only God knows why” you didn’t match this year.  As pointed out above multiple times, there is a lot that could be done to improve ones chances...you just have to be open to the positive suggestions.

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 03:44 PM

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 02:16 PM

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 02:10 PM

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 01:30 PM

Undergraduate: Harvard
Step I: 247/99
Step II CK: 250/99
Preclinical : few honors
Third-year Clinical : few honors
Fourth-year Clinical : all electives honors. Nsg sub I honors. did not do an away nsg subI
Alpha Omega Alpha:  no
Research:  extensive with multiple publications
Programs applied to: 40 programs
Interviews Offered: 29
Accepted interviews: 9
Ranked programs:  9
Match: No matched

General Comments : only God knows why....

Can’t get away with no away rotations - places like to match the people that they rank highly and if you don’t do any away’s, they think you just want to stay home.  9 interviews is too light, especially if they’re all strong programs.

They were not all strong program, they were spread from Mayo to Peoria. I only did 2 highly regarded places. I only did 9 interviews because my med school did not allow me time off to go to any more interviews, and did not do an away because I have decided late. Since I do not have a personality disorder I am thinking 2 things, maybe it was not my time to match right now, or 2: SF match screwed up the match (which is possible since there is no one out there to check and see what the hell they do). So yeah, I guess the only one who really knows what happened is God. What can I do? Absolutely nothing.

I agree about the ‘attitude’...I understand the disappointment...but, I wonder exactly how much a little complacency and feeling of superiority came across during the interviews.  To suggest that this somehow was ‘screwed up’ by the match may also point to some personality problems.  Just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you........

Please do not insult my belief system. I do believe that there is something else besides our best effort that dictates where we go in life and what we do. Just because you have matched, it does not mean that you will be a neurosurgeon, something can happen, people get fired, people have accidents, everything is not controlled by you, but by a higher power. Some people with great stats did not match this year, and yeah, only God knows why, because the lists are confidential. At the same time, one program heavily courted me and I really thought I had a quaranteed spot there. Anywhy, I will still think that only God knows why I did not match, or why all the other candidates with good stats did not match.
Second of all, I have no proof that the match is not screwed up in some way. It is a computer program, software gets corrupted, people make errors. I don’t know what kind of fail safe system they use. Putting completely your faith in a computer, I don’t know if it is your best choice. When a program tells me “we will match you #2”, and they take 2 every year, I rank them first and I don’t match, I really do wonder if they lied to me, or if the SF match is bad.

People need to leave those who did not match alone. It seems pretty assinine, even for this bunch, to be kicking fellow applicants when they are down…

To the above poster, thank you for sharing your story with us. If i had to guess, i’d say it’s more likely that the program screwed you over and lied to you. Perhaps you could call the program up and ask for clarification?

surgigal - 27 January 2008 03:42 PM

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 01:30 PM

Undergraduate: Harvard
Step I: 247/99
Step II CK: 250/99

General Comments : only God knows why....

Hey there, I’m so sorry that you didn’t match.  Good for you having the guts to put yourself out here.  Next year’s class can benefit a lot from your bravery.  If you feel the least bit demoralized or frustrated with things right now, hopefully people will keep in mind what you’re going through and be gentle.  It’s hard to imagine a bigger kick in the belly than we both got on Thursday, no matter the reason why it happened.

I hope you won’t mind if I toss in my 2 cents?  Of course there might have been nothing but bad luck against you.  Nobody will ever know if you were ranked #2 at nine places that all had one spot, and it could technically have happened.  But I also see some potential mistakes that both you AND I could have made and next year’s folks could avoid.

I was advised to do only one away rotation in addition to my home one.  I chose a tough program and got Honors there, but by the time I left, I knew it wasn’t a program where I would be happy for 7 years...so it didn’t end up giving me an “inside track” I could use.  My school also doesn’t begin fourth year until August, so my home rotation was that month and the away was all of September.  I thought it was way late at that point to get a letter (heck, my first 2 interview invites had already arrived by then), so I didn’t bother.  Bad move?  Oh yeah, I bet.

Later, I was asked several times on the interview trail why I had only done one away rotation.  That’s when I realized that doing just one away rotation was not that normal and probably raising red flags at least in some places.  If doing only one raised flags, doing none almost surely did.  So based on my experience and possibly yours, perhaps future folks could aim for at least 2?  (To be complete, however, I do know someone who did zero aways and did match...there are no hard and fast rules.)

On the number of interviews to do, both of us declined 20 invites.  I did 13, you did 9.  They say that statistically 10 is “enough,” but you know, maybe this year it really wasn’t.  Both of us chose a mix of top and lower tier schools.  Possibly you got feedback that you thought was encouraging and felt you’d done enough.  Would you do more if you could go back?

Plus as I mentioned before, I think I goofed by not telling my #2 and #3 programs how highly I was ranking them.  Did you make sure your top few knew?  Something I didn’t realize before interviews, but which became evident during, was how much chairmen care about getting one of their top few picks.  I was told that having to go to their 10th or 11th choice applicant actually has some effect on their program’s reputation or some kind of ranking.  (Would be interested to know if this is legit, but you can’t really get a better source than a chairman himself, so I believed it.) Therefore they try to rank people highly who they really think they’re going to get.  Being dishonest and telling everyone you’ll rank them #1 is a bad idea - seriously, this gets caught, chairmen talk to each other - but maybe you *really* do have to let a program know you want them in order to be ranked high enough.

All just thoughts and speculation for the benefit of next year, none aimed at you in anything remotely like criticism.  I am sure you did your best (would anyone put themselves through this without doing their best?) and I’m so sorry you didn’t match.  Here’s to keeping your chin up and let’s hope both of us find something wonderful for next year!

Thanks a lot, maybe it was not doing an away, maybe it was the number of interviews, maybe it was just my luck. I am sorry you did not match. Good luck to you next year. I will try the general scramble. Frankly, I feel that I will do just fine in whatever field of medicine I am going into, I work hard, I do my job efficiently. I will not be as happy as doing nsg, but my family will love me for it. I tried, it just did not work out. Maybe I don’t have the stature to be a nsg, I am just 5 feet and 110 lbs.

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 07:02 PM

People need to leave those who did not match alone. It seems pretty assinine, even for this bunch, to be kicking fellow applicants when they are down…

To the above poster, thank you for sharing your story with us. If i had to guess, i’d say it’s more likely that the program screwed you over and lied to you. Perhaps you could call the program up and ask for clarification?

Pretty much what I wanted to say.

First of all, the SFmatch has screwed up in the past, which is why it is being changed to the normal match. I personally met one resident on the interview trail this year who said that he had submitted his rank list, and about an hour before the match felt really paranoid and decided to call up SFmatch and make sure they had entered his rank list. They said they had not received it, and he had to fax it to them at the last second. If he hadn’t called, he would have gone unmatched and not even known why.

Second, as you said, this was a last minute decision of yours to enter into neurosurgery (which is totally understandable since med school gives you virtually zero time to explore subspecialties), and this may have looked bad to programs...i.e., do you know what you’re getting into, are you really interested in it, did you have any research that related to the field or any projects that showed your interest in the field, etc.?

Hey, so when does all the data on the match come out?

Just for next year’s applicants, so you’re not so nervous… your first interview is going to be nerve-wracking because you probably won’t really know where you fall in terms of the competitiveness of the other applicants… but by the end you will start to realize that most of the same people are with you on the same interviews, and, to me at least, it seemed that there are only 10-20% of other interviewees that are absolutely outstanding and are no doubt going to match, 70-80% of interviewees are great and will most likely match, and then ~10% that you meet on the trail are probably not going to match.

Anonymous User - 27 January 2008 11:20 AM

How about 2nd looks, after the interviews?  Did people find that they were helpful?

I’ll give you the other side here: from the program’s point of view, second looks are a bit annoying. They won’t help you, and could actually hurt you if people have to take a lot of time to talk to you. They best serve you if there are two programs you’re very serious about, and want to look at each in greater detail. If that’s the case, email the chair or PD and be open about the situation. But don’t make the mistake of thinking that the additional “face time” is going to help.

I’m getting too old to give the applicant’s POV on this, so I’ll let others chime in.